Episode 3. Ethnicity and Equality

Paul

Hi and welcome to Let's Talk. Today, we'll be talking to Mariam Olamijuwon about ethnicity and her experiences of inclusion regarding the topic and what she feels needs to be improved in Ireland regarding ethnicity. So let's get into the interview.

Paul

So hi, Miriam, and welcome to today's episode of Let's Talk, where we are going to be discussing the exclusivity efforts made in Ireland regarding the black community. So my first question is, what are your opinions on the inclusion of students regarding race and ethnicity in third level institutes around Ireland?

Miriam

For me, what I've noticed is there's always an effort made to appear inclusive. Like on the fronts of like let's say like a prospectus, is usually either a person of color or like a black person, a different ethnicity. Or you'll see societies that are set up by, like, you know, all the communities of different ethnic backgrounds within the college. But from my experience with that of being in the college atmosphere, the groups usually, they're usually the people that take care of themselves. In more cases the groups take care of themselves and they're less likely to carry their problems or their issues or their worries about lack of exclusivity. They're less likely to bring it up to a member of staff or an authority figure in the college.

Paul

Did you ever have any personal experience with being excluded in college due to race?

Miriam

Yeah, there was an incident I was in first year and there was an incident where me and my friends were sitting in, there's like this cafe called Smokies, it was the main hangout spot in NUIG at the time. And so there was this app called Yik Yak and it was really popular around that time. You could write comments. You can type in a person's name and a lot of comments pop up. Yeah, it's like literally it was anonymous, but like you could literally mention whatever and then everybody would get on the conversation. It was basically like anonymous Twitter. But I'm like, normally people would use it in lecture halls and they talk about the lecture or something. But on this day, me and my friends were, I think for some people we were laughing a bit too loud or whatever. But then literally we see on Yik Yak, we see things like "They're laughing like a bunch of monkeys." "Somebody go get a noose", like there was just really, like, really horrible and like graphic things being said. And it was just the thing. It's because that platform was anonymous. Nobody would have the nerve to actually get up and say that to a group of black people. But if it was this type of thing where they had the ability to do it over a platform where no one can see them or anyone can call them out on it, you know what I mean? And the college, we reported it to the college. They couldn't do anything about it because it was anonymous. But like, this is what I mean by things like this happen all the time. We just so happened to come across that YikYak thread. What if we didn't? Like these are conversations that are had when people aren't aware, you know what I mean?

Paul

Do you feel like this is more done on social media than in person with regards to racism? Like, do you feel like you are more likely to get it online than in person?

Miriam

I think social media gives people, it kind of removes like a sense of responsibility when it comes to the words that are putting out or whatever. It's more likely social media but I wouldn't say that we wouldn't come across it in person. Like there's subtle things. There's like microaggression. Like somebody might not come out and blatantly say the N-word. But when you can see, certain people are being treated a certain type of way or when you see security is only asking these certain people for certain things or, you know, when you see things like that, you know, it's targeted. It's not like blatant outward racism, but it's like a bias, like a prejudice that's being exercised.

Thoughts from You

In my most humble opinion, I feel like the inclusion element in third level education could be a lot better. Each year, thousands of international and Erasmus students come to Ireland for an opportunity at a different culture, but rarely find themselves being included in any Irish activities. On top of this, international and Erasmus students pay 12000 euro compared to three 3000 for our students. They are also not eligible for different grants such as SUSI and the 1916 bursary.

Paul

Yeah, in our survey, a majority of responses. Eighty two percent felt like those who are anything other than Caucasian are marginalized in our society. And seventy nine percent felt the inclusion surrounding race and ethnicity has yet to be improved within the Irish education system. Do you feel like this is true within society?

Miriam

Yeah, just simply because, like, I've been in Ireland since I was two and a half. I'm so used to this place, like I understand the politics. I understand, people are used to a certain way of life. So they expect you to get used to them rather than them to have to get used to. You know what I mean? Like, let's say like a new restaurant opens in a town, if they're a completely random cuisine, less people are likely to go to go and try those things out. You know what I mean?

Paul

Because it's not what they're used to?

Miriam

Exactly. Exactly. So I feel like people they want to make an effort to see and understand these new things and new cultures, but they're not used to it, so they don't know how to approach it.

Paul

So you feel that there's a lot more to be done with regards to diversity within Irish society?

Miriam

Yeah, one hundred percent, especially in the education system with regards to diversity.

Paul

What changes would you like to see in the upcoming year, like in the future?

Miriam

I would like to see changes being made to the curriculum. Like I have a friend of mine, a friend, but like I know her through friends of friends. You might have seen her on RTE with Tommy Tiernan, her name's Felicia. She's been helping to change the, I think it was secondary school and primary school English curriculum. So things like that, including like more diverse poets or including different authors, different playwrights. Like, yes, I understand things have been a certain way for a certain amount of time, but if we really want to be inclusive, then we have to actually try and hear people's voices from other communities. Same thing with politicians. Like I want to see more people of color running for these positions. Not just running for these positions, but being given the platform to actually, make their points, you know?

Paul

Yeah, no, I do get it because I feel like in school it's, like even in primary, like when you go to the bookshelf, there isn't many books that sort of represent diverse characters. And funnily enough, I would follow, you know Leigh-Ann from Little Mis, and she was back a few weeks ago. There was these books that she was promoting. I think they were done by a company along the lines of Tango Teaser, and they focused on the hair of black children and books about, you know, their hair. And that's something that hasn't really been done before. Like you don't really see many books.

Miriam

I think things like that. Like if I was just putting myself back in, like me being eight years old, if I saw a book like that on the shelf, I'd be so happy. Like I'd be overjoyed just to be able to see something that looks like, that represents me, that's widely available to everybody. Not everybody has to read it, but just the fact that I have the opportunity to see myself in something like that. That's how I see, I'm I'm hopeful for the next couple of generations within the education system because people that came to the country when they were my age, they're becoming teachers now. So we're seeing more black teachers in secondary schools or like Asian teachers in secondary schools. And that that alone like, having that representation in front of the classroom instead of just as a member of the class, that changes the classroom experience altogether.

Paul

Do you think the events we've seen from the US, especially over the last year, has boosted the conversation on this topic in Ireland? Or have you noticed any change, for better or worse?

Miriam

Yeah, one hundred percent. I think for the first few weeks after the events like George Floyd and Sandra Bland and Brianna Taylor, after those events, there was, I think it only blew up because of social media. The message only carried across over here because it became so big on the news and on Facebook and Instagram and it was publicized and everybody wanted to protest. But then it dies down after a while because these things, like when they're made so big, it's hard for people to keep the fire going. Like the one protest is great. But then, like, we can't have a protest every single week because it feels like we're trying to drum a message into people. We shouldn't have to drum this into people, people should just naturally understand it. Like no one wants to feel excluded. No one wants to feel left out and wants to feel marginalized. So it should be more inherit, like it shouldn't have to be a protest every week for people to understand these things.

Paul

My next question actually is on the protests. As we saw last year when a lot of the stories were being told on the US that protests were happening in Ireland, everywhere from Dublin and even to Dundalk where we are studying, we're doing protests. What was your reaction to these protests? Do you think they were important in educating, and maybe opening people's eyes to topics they might not have already known about otherwise?

Miriam

Yeah, because like myself personally, I was at the protest and Galway whenever this when these were happening. And like, I was up the night before making banners and posters with my friends. I was with the people who were making sure that there were grids marks so that we were social distancing. I was helping people hand out hand sanitizer and masks and stuff to make sure everything was covid regulated. It felt like, it was great to see how much support we had, especially in the face of, like...OK, let's say like there's a group of over a couple of hundred people, there would still be people walking around shouting horrible things or whatever, like making their opinions known, even if it might have just been like a couple of people, but like, having allies like that don't look like us, stand with us and be just as angry as we are and actually witness the things that we face on a regular basis. And like standing with us, that made a huge impact for those, for those couple of weeks around that time.

Paul

I'm sure it did, because it would have shown a bit of hope. Because if these people, if everyone at this protest from all different races can unite for this for this reason, like hopefully in the future more and more, and hopefully this won't be an issue in years to come.

Miriam

I think slowly but surely, Ireland is getting more diverse. It is getting more multicultural, even though there are people, like, opposing it, like Gemma. What's her name? There's a politician, Gemma O'Doherty. She was shouting about, she doesn't want a multicultural Ireland, but like at the end of the day, as the generations are going on, it is becoming more multicultural, is becoming more accepting. There's different people are being shown on television now. Different artists are being played on the radio. I think it's just it's a matter of time. It's just a matter of time.

Paul

I have noticed, like, there has been a lot more, especially from June, a lot of different companies in the media have reviewed like their, I know ITV, I think in June they reviewed the amount of white presenters and they had and then put more diverse people on those programs. So like in loose women, predominantly you would have seen five white presenters and then, now since then you would see its more even, you would even see a black woman as the host when the host was always predominantly white. It was either Ruth or Andrea. So it is, it's good to see the changes being made, but it is very sad that these changes are only happening because of the tragic events that happened back last year.

Miriam

Yeah, and it's encouraging. But like, I'm just, I'm happy to see these things happening. But for me now, it's nice to have these figures on television and on the radio. But at the same time, I feel like sometimes I feel like people still feel like they need to monitor themselves when they're speaking. Like I did an article with a friend of mine, she interviewed me for her article and even some of the responses I was getting from people in my community is like, careful when you're speaking out because you don't know how this can affect you later. Somebody that's hiring you, they might not want to hire you if they feel like you speak too much against them or speak about this issue too much like there is still, people do still feel the need to keep their worries to themselves when it comes to these kind of things. They don't want to seem ungrateful or they don't want to seem like they're complaining or like they're still pushing the issue. But there is still things that need to be talked about. There is still things that need to be addressed.

Paul

Again, from our survey, we saw that college and university societies are seen as important for how some students feel included. Do you think societies are important for making students who are black, feel safe and included on campus? Or what else is needed to further ensure the students don't feel othered or marginalized?

Miriam

I think OK. I was I personally was on the African Caribbean society when I was in college. I ended up being vice president in my final year as well. So I know what it is to like have to, like, welcome these people and make them feel like this is a safe space, because when we hang out together, it feels safer. But when everybody's, like, dispersed among the college, you kind of feel almost isolated because you're only your face among like a sea of other faces, you know what I mean? It's the kind of thing where the little things will make the difference. Societies are great, events are great, but little things make the difference. Like a lecturer remembering how to pronounce somebody's last name or a lecturer is making more of an effort to actually get to know the students or like, I don't know, serving different foods in the in the canteens every once in a while. Just different backgrounds. And even like music that's being played on the speakers, like playing different, like not it's not the same artist that's being played every time, play something else. Little things can be implemented, it's not just societies. Because a group of people can gather together at any time, but people need to feel welcomed and feel included when they're in the mass, not just an isolated group.

Thoughts from You

At a diversity discussion panel we held over a month ago at the student union. A lot of diverse students felt that their lecturers were not equipped to deal with cultural differences. This includes lecturers speaking too quickly and students not being able to understand their dialect. We hope to discuss this with the college about some sort of diversity training being held by the Irish Network Against Racism for lectures and possibly students in the future.

Paul

You got it there on the music. That is something the colleges could do, like instead of having just RTE and MTV stations playing like having different backgrounds to play so everyone feels included. The next question is we have also got responses that have mentioned social media as a tool that discourages inclusion. Do you feel like this is accurate?

Miriam

Yes, to a degree, simply just because of the whole situation that I went through. But like people, they have this keyboard warrior mentality. Like they can say anything through the computer. And it's the same way, like cyber bullying went on whenever we first got Facebook, like it's the same I don't know. People have this mentality. They're not responsible for the things that they say because it's online. But now because of things like cancel culture, people are being exposed. And then, I don't know, their workplace will find out or their colleges will find out. It's the things that they do about it afterwards. It's the way the situations are handled offline that matter more than online. But social media is quite dangerous when it comes to all of those things.

Paul

Do you feel that the pandemic has impacted the amount of abuse that people would get on social media?

Miriam

Yeah, like everybody is at home and their fingers are itching and they're bored and they don't know what to do. And they're so quick to get into it like an argument on Facebook in the comments section, like even during the whole during when all the protests were going on and everybody wanted everybody to stay at home and social distance and stay inside. People were giving out about the protest, but nobody's giving out about the people that are going to the beach and leaving litter and or people that are going or just hanging in big groups. It was more it was the people felt like they had an opportunity to be extra racist around the protest. That's the part that really blew my mind. I'm like the same mentality. So it's because people are at home when they have nothing to do. They still like whenever the opportunity comes along, it just it flies out of the like. They just they want to I don't know. I think it's in human nature when they see something that doesn't look like themselves, it's like they don't know how to react.

Paul

And funny enough, when you were discussing the amount of backlash on social media, the protests were getting, it is quite funny how the Black Lives Matter protests and even the protests there a few weeks ago in England with regards to I think it was Sarah Hyland, the media seem to be very judgmental and zone in on those protests instead of the protests there a few months back in Belfast, cause I'm from the north, there were ones wearing masks with the mouth cut out, protesting that covid didn't exist. And there was hardly any media coverage on that. Do you feel like the media plays a role in racism?

Miriam

Hundred percent, because with media, it's the same thing like whenever you read like a newspaper headline, whatever sensational sells. It's like that's why with the whole Black Lives Matter thing, like when some somebody had to die for people to actually pay attention, that's crazy to me because people are off the road protesting about masks and they just it just seems like, oh, they're just being hooligans. They're just like, they're just making a little show. Like, it doesn't seem like that's too important, you know, when that's actually a major issue that people, I don't understand. Like somebody asks you to wear a mask to protect other people. That's very simple, like, I don't know, maybe people feel like that's infringing on their their free will, but that's very simple to protect other people. When somebody is saying, please be more mindful of how you treat people of other races, that's like, that's also like very, very, very simple. If you're protecting another person from feeling isolated, you're protecting them from feeling attacked. You're learning how to include them more so that your kids will get used to seeing people of different cultures. And like you just, you're you're making an effort to improve this generation on the next.

Paul

Do you feel that white privilege plays a massive role in this ignorance that people have to inclusion?

Miriam

Yeah, I think people, when you say white privilege, people like automatically, they get on the defense. Like, what do you mean? I don't have any privilege. I'm just as regular as the next person. It's like you don't even understand that, just like simply being born in the skin that you're born in, there's so many things you don't have to face simply because you were born a certain type of way. It's crazy to me that people don't like understand that like straight off the bat, because when you're going to apply for a job, if you have an Irish last name, it's automatically going to be easier for you than, let's say, like somebody with a Polish last name or somebody with a Nigerian last name. You know, it's simple things like that, not understanding that privilege. Like, it blows my mind that people don't they don't think that this thing applies to them.

Paul

Yeah. A lot of a lot of people do seem to be judged because of their surname, because it is from a different background rather than an Irish surname. Like I don't know, there seems to be this instance sort of like feeling that comes across people like that and they feel like, "oh, like this person might be suspicious just because of their surname". Because it is different.

Miriam

Yeah. It's even like, I don't know if you heard about that thing, but like with the traveling community, there was an incident in England where I think, I'm not sure if it was Butlin's or there are some themepark that was basically they were like telling, cancelling bookings of families who had Irish traveller last names. It's like you're reading something out like but these people aren't weeds, like they're just regular people. They're just people. It's the last name that you're using to pick out what you don't like. I think that's the. Oh, it's it's crazy.

Paul

Like, what do you think could be done to ensure campuses in Ireland are safe with regards to inclusivity for students from all different ethnicity?

Miriam

For me, I think it goes beyond having faces on like a perspective. I think it's really just down to, like, each individual to make the effort. Same thing when it comes to, I don't know if you have these available at DKIT, but we have like anti-racism courses going on in NUIG. The things like that, like little things that people have the option to take them. But at the same time, I feel like these kind of workshops should be more, they should be done campus wide, like when we had to have consent workshops that would be done in front of the entire lecture hall. I think the exact same thing should be done when it comes to having like an anti racism workshop. Like, it's not these aren't small topics that should be handled, like, you know, in little groups. I think this is a thing that needs to be made campus wide, you know, in big groups and spoken about like on a regular basis.

Paul

Are there any last thoughts you have that haven't been brought up yet that you would like to share with regards to the inclusivity of the black community recently?

Miriam

I've just I've noticed I'm not sure if you guys have been made aware, but there was there was a young man in Dublin who was shot down by the armed police forces and the armed guard unit people. I don't know why, but of late, they've been painted maybe not of late, but this has been going on for a while. But it's more so the case now. But they've been painting all black men to be very violent. And like I understand I understand that sometimes it comes from the types of music that they listen to, that's why you think are violent, or the way they're dressed. But I really think that that assumption of aggression or violence makes it makes, it instills fear in our community as well as like the white community in Ireland. It doesn't help anybody. I feel like that gaurd needs to come down in terms of like assuming automatically that you're going to get this, like, fight back. Like, I think everybody needs to be more open to having conversations and like actually like understanding the other side instead of automatically being on the defense or thinking, making assumptions of how the other person is going to react.

Paul

I had seen about that attack that happened in Dublin. It is shocking how these attacks are still happening nine months down the line since all of the attacks in America. Like, it just, it shows that there's a lot more change that needs to happen with regards to the black community and how there's different approaches that the Gaurds and other armed forces should use with regard to the black community and all communities. It was atrocious what was going on.

Miriam

It just it was very, like things like that happening in America. It's far removed from us. Even though I have cousins over there, I still like I'm passionate about what happens over there. But when it happens just down the road, like I'm, I know I actually know the boy's older sister. I know his sister. So for me, it was very, it was just too close to home. It was just too close to home for people to ignore anymore. Like for people to say that there's not a there's not an issue with race in Ireland. That's it's crazy to me because it's very apparent. So, like, it happens on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be someone get shot down. It could be somebody on a bus making comments like things like that. Like I think people just need to get involved more. If you see something like that happen and say something like don't wait for that person to report the incident, you can make a report like.

Paul

Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. You have provided such and such a good insight into the efforts that still need to be done with regards to the community. And also, thank you so much for sharing your own experiences. And hopefully listeners will take a different understanding away from it and hopefully it will encourage a lot more people to be inclusive.

Miriam

Thank you for having me. And I hope so, too. Thank you so much for even having the conversation, this is where it starts.

Paul

There's so much that needs to be done in regards to inclusion in Ireland.

Miriam

Yeah, one hundred percent. But like, you know, as long as the efforts are being made, then, you know, we'll find our way forward. We'll find our foot.

THE END.

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